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The Rock
17:50 As was suggested on another channel, Is there a reality without some awareness perceiving it? 17:52 I think that reality might be self-aware. Or in the process thereof. 17:56 I believe that everything that IS, is aware, and if it's not, it doesn't exist 17:57 so a rock is aware of its own existence? 17:57 in some as yet unverifiable way, yes. or at least the particles it is made of. 17:58 yes, or the organism it is a part of 17:58 mm... i pity the rock that gets flushed down the toilet as it's aware of knocking against the sanitary pipes down into the pond 17:58 :) 17:58 but maybe the rock as we see it is not real 17:58 but an outer manifestation of awareness 17:59 you would hit an imaginary body 17:59 true... 17:59 * appletizer picks up a LARGE rock 17:59 and the pain i would feel would only be an awareness of pain 17:59 If we can sense the rock, perhaps we can also have insight into its awareness. 18:00 i don't think things are imaginary unless they exist solely in the imagination - the inner world. 18:02 back to the original question. Is there reality beyond perception? we may have no way of knowing. does it mean OUR perception or ANY perception? 18:02 they might not be imaginary, but ehat we think of as a rock may be 18:03 in fact, if it's beyond ANY perception, then there's a possible contradiction. 18:04 any reality we came to know about would no longer qualify.... 18:04 there would be no way to verify it, ultimately. 18:04 I BELIEVE there is, though. As the alternative seems absurd. 18:04 If the tree falls in the forest.... 18:04 there isn't. only experience 18:05 the tree is aware of itself 18:05 when there is no awareness, there might be vibrations in the air, but no sound 18:05 the tree makes a sound. the laws of physics are the same everywhere except in singularities and tininess. 18:05 sound is made in the brain 18:06 I believe that the sound exists as the vibration in the air, and so exists no matter what. 18:07 But it is a belief 18:07 Like so many things. 18:07 question: does my imagining of an object make it real, somehow? 18:07 Is imagination a type of perception? 18:09 If I imagine a rock as being self-aware does that make it so? 18:09 The imagination is somehow real.... 18:10 no. 18:10 Never mind the mathematical distinction. 18:10 haha! 18:10 the rock, or at least something we percieve as a rock is there 18:11 but WHAT it is we don't know for sure 18:11 but how do we perceive its sentience, except through the imagination? 18:11 we percieve only outer.... manifestations 18:11 How does ANYONE perceive awareness? 18:12 If we lock this down, we exclude things perhaps inappropriately. 18:12 and self-aware is something else entirely!!! 18:14 I've got to go. cya in a few hours. 18:16 you don't percieve awareness, awereness IS percieving 18:16 I disagree. 18:17 but I'll have to leave it until a later time. :) 18:17 =-= MathPoet is now known as MathPoetAway 18:24 =-= YOU are now known as DGN|brb 18:29 -->| Haexyrus_ (n=Haexyrus@196.203.60.109) has joined ##philosophy 18:30 |<-- Haexyrus has left freenode (Nick collision from services.) 18:30 =-= Haexyrus_ is now known as Haexyrus 18:35 anyway. if a rock would be aware, we have no way of knowing of WHAT it would be aware 18:35 of 18:36 supposing of course that there really exists a thing we call "rock" 18:37 we separate our surroundings and diveide it into different "objects" 18:37 it is an arbitrary stance 18:37 maybe there is no such thing as an independent entity called rock 18:38 and because nobody yet knows what "matter" is, nor what "awareness" is 18:38 everybody's still searching 18:39 delving into matter into atoms and further 18:40 but everything we deem "proven" 18:40 just brings up more questions 18:41 But western science disregards the fact, that everything we see is there because we perceive it 18:42 they diregard the "I", the perceiver and say it is a by-product of the material (bio-chemical) organism 18:42 but who says that? 18:43 it is an "I" that believes and "perceives" those things to be true 18:44 they are subjective ideas 18:44 and not real if you regard the "I" as not real 18:44 this is the paradox 18:45 there is no reality without an awareness of it and there is no awareness if there is nothing to be perceived 18:45 to be aware of 18:47 * Haexyrus is away: I'll be back in 2hours 18:47 bye Haexyrus ;) 18:48 Haexyrus, thanks for cotnribting to the list 18:56 doe this line of reasoning make any sense? 18:56 =-= YOU are now known as DGNeree 18:56 *NickServ* This nickname is owned by someone else 18:56 *NickServ* If this is your nickname, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY 18:57 *NickServ* Password accepted - you are now recognized 18:57 =-= User mode for DGNeree is now +e 18:59 Eastern philosophy states that as everything in the material word is (seemingly) undergoing change, transformation,"coming together" and dissolution, there is no reality in it 19:01 it is all manifestations of an underlying reality, which is eternal, unborn and undying, unchanging and the ground for all manifestations 19:01 and that ground is the "I", the perciever, the innermost soul, the Atman 19:02 because it doesn't change, everything changes 19:04 it is totally opposite to the western idea of the world, in which the objects are "real" and the ego subjective and nonexistent 19:04 And of course, the "I" is non-existent. 19:04 it is not an object 19:05 and it cannot be defined by logic 19:06 Anyway, the two ideas are irreconcilable and neither can be proven 19:06 "That's why the twain shall never meet" 19:07 But maybe they will :) 19:08 The "I" is pure awareness 19:11 it perceives what the senses let through, calls it matter. it percieves thoughts and feelings 19:12 and is unchanged by it category:Discussions